New FA Signing "Problem" - New Rule Inside

[Suicane]

The problem, Kobeck, is this. Guys will take ALOT less than they want. Which will cause no one to have cap trouble, which will, in my eyes, make free agency almost non existant since anyone can be renogiated to an absurdly low base salary.

[sovstar]

I used this technique, not knowing it was in any way a technique, to renogiatite with DT's Ash and Monroe, probably a couple of others but nobody else on my roster is worth talking about. :lol:

Anyhow, the way I see it, if those guys go down or retire then the Mules suffer a huge CAP hit as all the bonus money comes forward. Again the same as if I wanted too cut them. Also what about holdouts with the minimum salary's. I guess that would have to be more of a concern IMO.

I can see plusses and minuses with this and really all it accomplished too me is to keep the CAP even instead of gyratting with backloaded contracts - which is what I wanted too do. I paid them the money up front and leveled their contracts out over the remainder of their careers.

My only question to you Kobeck is how you you went from offering Ash 16 million over 5 years to 10.5 million over 5 years?

He rejected 16 million dollars, but then accepted your 10.5 million dollar deal. What exactly was your logic when you decided to offer him 5.5 million dollars less after he declined a larger deal?

[roadrash]

Anyhow, the way I see it, if those guys go down or retire then the Mules suffer a huge CAP hit as all the bonus money comes forward. Again the same as if I wanted too cut them. Also what about holdouts with the minimum salary's. I guess that would have to be more of a concern IMO.

I dont' think this is what the issue is, for example.

I'll use Jason Downer, G, as an example. He has 3 years left on his contract, 3.75, 4.68, and 5.85 mil in salary. 2.39 mil in bonus money each year for total cap numbers of 6.14, 7.07, and 8.24

If I try to renegotiate right now, he is asking for $6,560,000 in bonus money. The total cap hit includes previous bonus money.

Years	Salary	Total Cap Hit
1st year	$820,000	$4,850,000
2nd year	$3,780,000	$7,810,000
3rd year	$4,900,000	$8,930,000
4th year	$5,880,000	$7,520,000

This might be an ok deal if your having cap trouble in the current year. Here is the new eamle with the "problem"

Years	Salary	Total Cap Hit
1st year	$820,000	$4,850,000
2nd year	$990,000	$5,020,000
3rd year	$990,000	$5,020,000
4th year	$990,000	$2,630,000

Now this is a sweet deal, now I can resign all my big players to 3-4 year deals for pennies on the dollar. So next year I can sign Collins, I know he' snot going to be there Kcin, to a 25 mil, 2 year deal, and resign him for league minimum the following year.

Of course, since I have so much moeny tied up in Downer now, it doesn't reduce much. But lets say I'm on his last year of his contract
$6,000,000 in bonus, plus an additional 2 mil in previous bonus money

Years	Salary		Total Cap Hit
1st year	$820,000	$4,000,000	$4,820,000
2nd year	$990,000	$2,000,000	$2,990,000
3rd year	$990,000	$2,000,000	$2,990,000

Now is it realistic that I should be able to sign a franchise player for barely the average of the top 5 players? And the top 5 franchise saleries doesn't even include bonus money. Just the salary.

Crap, I forgot my point. The "Risk" of a player getting injured is exactly the same. Your not increasing the bonus money, you just reducing the ungaurenteed money. The risk is the same and is not the issue here. The issue is that the Salary Cap is no longer challenging. An dthe FA pool will run dry since every owner can cheaply resign vets.

[Cringer]

Can you imagine some of the deals that could be done? roadrash, look at the Muls DT's and those are the only example's you need. Zoomie is fine but I think Ash is this problem exactly as we do not want it. There is not much we can do about it the Mules now, because he did this a while ago. And although I have the feeling Kobeck knew what he was doing but obviously we did not know about this then, and no rule was in place so his contracts will stand.


So, temp. rule until we get a patch or mke this a permanent rule.

You can NOT take advantage of this. If you extend a player's contract you must do it for his asking price on the base salary. No going lower for now, not even $100,000. We can check this, it's pretty easy to check it, and we will check all extended contracts for now.

Punishment would vary I guess, I have not though much about that part yet, although I am hoping I get a load over towards Tennessee this week so I can give Kobeck some caning lashes.

[Warhammer]

Anyhow, the way I see it, if those guys go down or retire then the Mules suffer a huge CAP hit as all the bonus money comes forward. Again the same as if I wanted too cut them. Also what about holdouts with the minimum salary's. I guess that would have to be more of a concern IMO.

I dont' think this is what the issue is, for example.

I'll use Jason Downer, G, as an example. He has 3 years left on his contract, 3.75, 4.68, and 5.85 mil in salary. 2.39 mil in bonus money each year for total cap numbers of 6.14, 7.07, and 8.24

If I try to renegotiate right now, he is asking for $6,560,000 in bonus money. The total cap hit includes previous bonus money.

Years	Salary	Total Cap Hit
1st year	$820,000	$4,850,000
2nd year	$3,780,000	$7,810,000
3rd year	$4,900,000	$8,930,000
4th year	$5,880,000	$7,520,000

This might be an ok deal if your having cap trouble in the current year. Here is the new eamle with the "problem"

Years	Salary	Total Cap Hit
1st year	$820,000	$4,850,000
2nd year	$990,000	$5,020,000
3rd year	$990,000	$5,020,000
4th year	$990,000	$2,630,000

Now this is a sweet deal, now I can resign all my big players to 3-4 year deals for pennies on the dollar. So next year I can sign Collins, I know he' snot going to be there Kcin, to a 25 mil, 2 year deal, and resign him for league minimum the following year.

Of course, since I have so much moeny tied up in Downer now, it doesn't reduce much. But lets say I'm on his last year of his contract
$6,000,000 in bonus, plus an additional 2 mil in previous bonus money

Years	Salary		Total Cap Hit
1st year	$820,000	$4,000,000	$4,820,000
2nd year	$990,000	$2,000,000	$2,990,000
3rd year	$990,000	$2,000,000	$2,990,000

Now is it realistic that I should be able to sign a franchise player for barely the average of the top 5 players? And the top 5 franchise saleries doesn't even include bonus money. Just the salary.

Crap, I forgot my point. The "Risk" of a player getting injured is exactly the same. Your not increasing the bonus money, you just reducing the ungaurenteed money. The risk is the same and is not the issue here. The issue is that the Salary Cap is no longer challenging. An dthe FA pool will run dry since every owner can cheaply resign vets.

I think the point you are missing is that it is not a zero sum gain. In the past, we were lowering the amount of the signing bonus and upping the salary per year. Now, we are giving them what they want on the front end, and reducing their salary to league minimum. The old way had less inherent risk because I might only be giving a player 30% of his money up front, now I will be giving him 80% of his money up front. That is a HUGE difference. Plus, don't forget that in any trades bonus money is dead cap space.

I only think this is an issue because we are used to doing it one way until now. If we switch to this method, we will have a one year adjustment period followed by everyone being on the same playing field.

[Cringer]

Yes, ost of a players money would now be in bonus money. But you are still giving him the same amount of bonus money he asks for. You do not have to increase the bonus money the player asks for, just lower his base salary. So the cap hits for cutting a guy, or trading a guy, for the most part stay the same as they would now.

Where this is unfair is you lower his base salary to the league minimum, when you really should not be able to go that far.

[Kobeck]

[quote="sovstar"My only question to you Kobeck is how you you went from offering Ash 16 million over 5 years to 10.5 million over 5 years?

He rejected 16 million dollars, but then accepted your 10.5 million dollar deal. What exactly was your logic when you decided to offer him 5.5 million dollars less after he declined a larger deal?[/quote]

If I remember correctly the bigger $ contracts were backloaded heavily, that is little or no bonus. the 10.5 was basically all bonus except for minimum yearly. Like I said I did not know this was a techinque or anything else I was just trying too use some of my current CAP and level out the remaining years where the base went from 6-7 mil to 13-14 mil.

Again I made a couple of offers before I front loaded the offers which was accepted. After Ash, I think he was first, I decided to make a similar offer to Monroe, could have the order mixed up, and that was accepted.

I was not trying to Cheat or work an exploit or anything I was trying to level out my CAP.

[Cringer]

Don't worry about it Kobeck, nobody really new this was there. So I am not going to worry about it in the least. Anything after this point by guys though will not be good.

[Kobeck]

I propose that the Mules be barred from FA for the rest of the 2004 late FA period and that the punishment for being over the CAP be imposed for 2005 - a loss of a draft pick if I am correct.

Again I did not know of this exploit but as soon as I read it here I knew that I in fact had done it.


edit: by me cringer, i hate when I hit edit instead of quote.

[Suicane]

Nah dude, no punishment needed for you, you're in the same division as the St. Louis Cardinals, getting yer ass handed to you twice this year and looking at C-Dogg picking off your QB and taking it back for a TD 4 or 5 more times is punishment enough. :lol:

[JesterBlaze]

This is REAL bad. I hope Jim fixes is soon.

I was gonna say this before so I probably should this time: We should think about not dowloading the latest versions of FOF until after they've been released and tested for a while to avoid problems like this.

[sovstar]

I propose that the Mules be barred from FA for the rest of the 2004 late FA period and that the punishment for being over the CAP be imposed for 2005 - a loss of a draft pick if I am correct.

Again I did not know of this exploit but as soon as I read it here I knew that I in fact had done it.

Grandstander! Grandstander!

If you want to be punished, then you are not going to be.
:lol:

[BurlingtonBolts]

I used this technique, not knowing it was in any way a technique, to renogiatite with DT's Ash and Monroe, probably a couple of others but nobody else on my roster is worth talking about. :lol:

Anyhow, the way I see it, if those guys go down or retire then the Mules suffer a huge CAP hit as all the bonus money comes forward. Again the same as if I wanted too cut them. Also what about holdouts with the minimum salary's. I guess that would have to be more of a concern IMO.

I can see plusses and minuses with this and really all it accomplished too me is to keep the CAP even instead of gyratting with backloaded contracts - which is what I wanted too do. I paid them the money up front and leveled their contracts out over the remainder of their careers.

Wait a minute, I don't have the game open, but aren't their rules against this? Usually leagues have "spirit of the game rule" I am going to look more into these contracts, but you can't tell me that Kobeck is that ignorant that he deliberatly lessened the base salary of each year to sign not one but two players and didn't think to mention anything to anyone.

This is bullshit. I am going to see how these contracts look like and what the actual rule we have to prevent people exploiting bugs that they have found and don't think are important enough to mention and take advantage of... but I think that is really shady personally. I think he should release both guys and sign them for normal contracts. Whatever.

Yes, I realize I will probably come off as a dick here (and I haven't read this entire thread) but you can't tell me noone in the league thinks there is nothing wrong with these signings.

[BurlingtonBolts]

[quote=Kobeck]

If I remember correctly the bigger $ contracts were backloaded heavily, that is little or no bonus. the 10.5 was basically all bonus except for minimum yearly. Like I said I did not know this was a techinque or anything else I was just trying too use some of my current CAP and level out the remaining years where the base went from 6-7 mil to 13-14 mil.

Again I made a couple of offers before I front loaded the offers which was accepted. After Ash, I think he was first, I decided to make a similar offer to Monroe, could have the order mixed up, and that was accepted.

I was not trying to Cheat or work an exploit or anything I was trying to level out my CAP.

Come on Kobeck, how old are you bro? You knew EXACTLY what you were doing. You even now admit that you did them as minimum offers. What the hell? Is noone going to speak up about this and call a spade a spade? This is foul.

[BurlingtonBolts]

I have now read the thread and I will give people a chance to respond, though I already expected to be lambasted for this. But I have a voice and I chose to use it to speak up for something I viewed was really wrong and still do.

I could see Kobeck or someone else trying to alter the base, SLIGHTLY... but c'mon the bare minimum, each and every year? You have to be kidding me. Noone is that fucking dense. Period. He had to know it was a bug and then he didn't say shit about it until the whole fof2004 multiplayer cominunity knew about the bug. Or as Jim puts it, it isn't a bug at all, but the way the game is designed? Whatever the hell that means. Basically if he wanted to design a game that basically elminates free agency from here on out, you did a great job.

You should have raised your hand much earlier than this, Kobeck... and anyone else who tried to do this in ANY league.

I'm sorry but fair is fair and this was not fair. He resigned two guys (and like I said I don't know if they are scrubs or all stars because I don't have the game open) for FAR, FAR less than they wanted and your whole team should benefit from it for many seasons. Gay. It sounds like one of the players is pretty good though from what someone else said and it looks like you saved 5 million or so on him. Well done. Excellent cap management there, pal.

I am going to shut up now, before I say something I might regret. (if I already haven't) I am sorry if I pissed off anyone who isn't directly responsible for this. Because we are all part of the same league, but c'mon this stinks like 7 or eight dead skunks.