Processed: SLC/CAL trade

[Hell Atlantic]

SLC gets:
2010 1st round pick
2012 2nd round pick
DE Lawrence Mitchell

CAL gets:
DE Joe Otey
WR Grady Gomez
LT Joseph Theobold

well, these negotiations were a lot more involved than my trade with Orlando. i likely didn't need to add the 3rd all time leader in sacks to go along with my current 2nd all time leader in sacks, but hey, why not. if the price is right then i'll come on down to Bob Barker. i woulda liked this deal more if SLC's awesome kicker Tamaarkin was involved, but i guess i need to have money to sign some scrubs to be my backups. best of luck to SLC, and nice doing business with you Vito. you're a hard guy to get a hold of.

[Hell Atlantic]

btw, this is my last deal of the offseason. i literally have no more pieces i can trade. it was a very eventful offseason for me. i added 2 franchise players on defense and replaced WR Caffery with an even better WR in Grady Gomez. this year we make The Leap. but still, i got nothing more to deal.

and judging by what St. Louis gave up for Austin - two 1st round picks for a 50ish rated RB - i'm *really* liking this deal. i take on a TON, i mean, a fucking TON of salary (that i'll have to quickly renogotiate), but only 1 first round pick and a 2nd for a stud DE and a stud WR? wowza! i'm not counting DE Mitchell cuz i included him for salary cap purposes (and besides, you can only have 2 DE's at a time and he makes too much to be a backup).

[JesterBlaze]

advantage CAL.

I would've loved a shot at Otey. Contract renagotiations would've been considered though.

[MrBigglesworth]

I would've loved a shot at Otey. Contract renagotiations would've been considered though.

Do you mean 'have a shot' in that you wish you knew he was available? Because he has been on the block since late May:

http://www.imperialfl.us/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4901

[MrBigglesworth]

HAn Snyder strikes again!

i'm not counting DE Mitchell cuz i included him for salary cap purposes...

I think this is a fairly even trade overall, but you are discounting Mitchell a ton. Here is a comparison of Mitchell and Otey over the past two seasons:

Player	Tackles	Sacks	Hurries	FF
Otey	54	7.75	19.5	1
Mitchell	48	7.5	24.5	1

So how much more production do you expect out of Otey than what you had before? Since Mitchell has been on the team since the beginning, cohesion takes a major hit. If money wasn't an issue I'd take Otey for sure, but Mitchell makes 3M compared to Otey's 9M. I'm sure you are expecting to resign Otey to a new contract, but he has the third toughest agent in the league and is coming off a 10 sack year where he won the in-game 1st team all-league defensive end. I doubt he will be looking for a low deal.

...replaced WR Caffery with an even better WR in Grady Gomez

Similarly, is a declining talent in Gomez going to be better than Caffrey? Caffrey had 69 catches and over 1000 yards last season. Gomez hasn't had a year like Caffrey's since 2005. Can you expect more production from Gomez than Caffrey had last season?

[tarcone]

Mitchell = 28 hurries
Otey= 14 hurries

Why would you trade the DEs? Should have left that part out of it
And you just acquired a WR who hasnt had a 1000 yard year in 3 seasons. Maybe your QB will get him one.

I think Salt Lake wins. Overpaid, underacheiving stars are easy to come by.

[sovstar]

SLC lost cap room this year: 19.1 million
SLC lost cap room next year: 19.5 million

[BuddaKINGII]

SLC lost cap room this year: 19.1 million
SLC lost cap room next year: 19.5 million

LOL... :roll:

[tarcone]

SLC lost cap room this year: 19.1 million
SLC lost cap room next year: 19.5 million

Yeah, that would be the negative to the whole deal

[sovstar]

SLC lost cap room this year: 19.1 million
SLC lost cap room next year: 19.5 million

Yeah, that would be the negative to the whole deal

Probably doesn't have any choice at this point (besides releasing guys for free), but I hope a lesson was learned.

[Hell Atlantic]

HAn Snyder strikes again!

i'm not counting DE Mitchell cuz i included him for salary cap purposes...

I think this is a fairly even trade overall, but you are discounting Mitchell a ton. Here is a comparison of Mitchell and Otey over the past two seasons:

Player	Tackles	Sacks	Hurries	FF
Otey	54	7.75	19.5	1
Mitchell	48	7.5	24.5	1

So how much more production do you expect out of Otey than what you had before? Since Mitchell has been on the team since the beginning, cohesion takes a major hit. If money wasn't an issue I'd take Otey for sure, but Mitchell makes 3M compared to Otey's 9M. I'm sure you are expecting to resign Otey to a new contract, but he has the third toughest agent in the league and is coming off a 10 sack year where he won the in-game 1st team all-league defensive end. I doubt he will be looking for a low deal.

...replaced WR Caffery with an even better WR in Grady Gomez

Similarly, is a declining talent in Gomez going to be better than Caffrey? Caffrey had 69 catches and over 1000 yards last season. Gomez hasn't had a year like Caffrey's since 2005. Can you expect more production from Gomez than Caffrey had last season?

you're not a good analyzer, so stop. in your quest to constantly undermine my moves/posts, you always seek to be contrary. Caffery is coming off his best season because - let's say it all together now - i upgraded the QB position. Caffery went from Rob Richardson to Dennis Collela. i also don't look so much at numbers. numbers are influenced hugely by the talent surrounding the players. Gomez was the only receiving threat on the Stallions. on the Heroes he will be paired with the emerging dominance of Nathan Mullin. you see, someone like you will look at 2 players and say "Player A has 60 catches, 850 receiving yards and 5 tds; Player B has 80 catches, 1,000 receiving yards and 9 tds. clearly Player B is the better guy" and you'll say that without looking at the whole picture. but that's where we differ. i always assume the other GM wasn't using a guy properly. i saw the potential that Collela had, and assumed he wasn't surrounded by the proper talent on Vancouver that i'd be able to assemble around him.

Otey i aquired just cuz i could. nothing more, nothing less. between the pass rush of Gilpin/Otey and the great secondary i have there really isn't a whole lot of places one can throw on the field. but simply put i felt i was trading my 1st round pick for Otey, and i believe, i know, Otey will be better than anyone i could've drafted at the spot i was in.

[JesterBlaze]

I would've loved a shot at Otey. Contract renagotiations would've been considered though.

Do you mean 'have a shot' in that you wish you knew he was available? Because he has been on the block since late May:

http://www.imperialfl.us/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4901

Damn. I was in "this season" (now last season) mode when that was posted - however I wrote it off as "stud DE = unaffordable both in contract and GM asking price" regardless - my mistake.

[JesterBlaze]

i also don't look so much at numbers. numbers are influenced hugely by the talent surrounding the players. Gomez was the only receiving threat on the Stallions. on the Heroes he will be paired with the emerging dominance of Nathan Mullin. you see, someone like you will look at 2 players and say "Player A has 60 catches, 850 receiving yards and 5 tds; Player B has 80 catches, 1,000 receiving yards and 9 tds. clearly Player B is the better guy" and you'll say that without looking at the whole picture. but that's where we differ. i always assume the other GM wasn't using a guy properly. i saw the potential that Collela had, and assumed he wasn't surrounded by the proper talent on Vancouver that i'd be able to assemble around him.

I agree with your way of thinking here but there's another train of thought (stat based - not attribute based) and they'll always see there way and we'll see ours. It seems only Jim could ultimately prove one side wrong.

This is actually not very different from the NFL's two drafting approaches: raw talent or college production?

[Hell Atlantic]

I would've loved a shot at Otey. Contract renagotiations would've been considered though.

Do you mean 'have a shot' in that you wish you knew he was available? Because he has been on the block since late May:

http://www.imperialfl.us/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4901

Damn. I was in "this season" (now last season) mode when that was posted - however I wrote it off as "stud DE = unaffordable both in contract and GM asking price" regardless - my mistake.

i established pretty quickly that Vito didn't really have any bargaining power in this, since he was so far over the cap. he only had two options - deal with an interested party like myself, not getting back as much as he normally would OR release his overpriced players and get nothing in return. i had asked for more players in return but he said no, but the overall theme was he needed to get rid of some guys to get under the cap. again, going back to my other trade - you don't lose anything by making an offer. coulda at least inquired.

i think he made out just fine. he left a lot on the table as far as bonus money is concerned, but with free agency quickly approaching once team's starting adding FAs to their teams his market for interested GMs would've shrank, so he was under the gun to get something, anything, done. he's got 2 good picks for his troubles and a very solid DE to replace Otey. that's about as good as he was gonna do.

[MrBigglesworth]

i always assume the other GM wasn't using a guy properly. i saw the potential that Collela had, and assumed he wasn't surrounded by the proper talent on Vancouver that i'd be able to assemble around him.

Well I'm a scientific guy myself, so let's go into the numbers to see how your theory plays out:

Colella QB rating:
2008 w/ Van 82.4
2009 w/ Cal 81.0

Deason YPC:
2006 w/ Cle: 4.60
2007 w/ Cle: 4.23
2008 w/ Cal: 3.88
2009 w/ Cal: 3.87

Gilpin PR% / Tk%:
2005 w/ Mtl: 6.3, 10.0
2006 w/ Mtl: 11.2, 11.4
2008 w/ Cal: 6.6, 8.2
2009 w/ Cal: 7.8, 8.0

Venegas KRB%:
2006 w/ LRK: 28.6
2007 w/ LRK: 31.7
2008 w/ Cal: 37.9
2009 w/ Cal: 24.7

What we see are a bunch of players who stayed static or fell a little in their performance. Filmore is the only one that really improved. Ingraham improved, but he had a random ratings boom so he really isn't relevant. So by your theory, does that mean that you aren't using your players properly? Or is it more likely that stats are generally pretty stable, with occasional outliers and exceptions (JC last year being one)?

I think the drop in stats is should be expected. The players are generally going to a situation where they have less cohesion and less chemistry, while also aging past their prime.

Otey i aquired just cuz i could. nothing more, nothing less. between the pass rush of Gilpin/Otey and the great secondary i have there really isn't a whole lot of places one can throw on the field. but simply put i felt i was trading my 1st round pick for Otey, and i believe, i know, Otey will be better than anyone i could've drafted at the spot i was in.

Otey will probably be more highly rated than anyone at that spot in the draft, he may even produce more this season than anyone at that spot, at 9 or so times the cap space, and have the potential to be on the team a third as long. Of course, the first round pick could also bust. It's a trade-off.